Counterjam

Flavors of NYC with Jarobi White & Kelis

Episode Summary

This episode is all about the city that never sleeps and always eats. Host Peter J. Kim looks at the undefinable cuisine of New York City, with the help of A Tribe Called Quest founding member Jarobi White and multiplatinum artist, chef, and fashion icon Kelis.

Episode Notes

This episode is all about the city that never sleeps and always eats. Host Peter J. Kim looks at the undefinable cuisine of New York City, with the help of A Tribe Called Quest founding member Jarobi White and multiplatinum artist, chef, and fashion icon Kelis.

Referenced in this episode:

Episode Transcription

Jarobi White: If you are able to leave your immediate neighborhood and to travel to other people's neighborhoods, you will be able to taste the globe in New York City.

(musical interlude)

Peter J. Kim: What's going on? I'm Peter J. Kim, and this is Counterjam, the new show on Food52's podcast network that explores culture through food and music. On this episode, we're talking NYC: my city, the city that never sleeps and the city that always eats. Alright, on this episode, we're going to dig into New York City hot dog carts, halal carts, bodega sandwiches and so much more with two incredible musicians: Jarobi White and Kelis. Both are born and raised New Yorkers, and both are music legends who went on to pursue culinary careers. You might know Jarobi from A Tribe Called Quest, but we're kicking it off with a hot beat from another group he started with fellow MC Dres. The group's called evitaN. So this song is called "Keep Keepin On." And to me, it captures one thing that is baked into the city's identity: grit. New York City is full of people who get their ass kicked and keep finding ways to keep keeping on. So here's Jarobi on the mic.

(musical interlude)

Peter: Yes, yes. Keep keeping on. That is Jarobi and Dres of evitaN with "Keep Keepin On." Check them out on Spotify and YouTube. This episode is all about New York City. So on the one hand, it's a little absurd to try to talk about the city's food culture, because in a way that assumes that there even is one food culture. I mean, there's this pop culture idea of New York City being a place for boozy brunches, thin crust pizza, fancy fine dining, cronuts and so on. But that version only applies to a very tiny subset of the people who live here. I mean, if you're a Guinean immigrant in the Bronx, you probably have no idea what a cronut is. Ultimately, New York City food culture really is a refraction of who you are. But what's phenomenal about New York City is this: whoever you are or whatever it is you want, the city can probably serve it up. So let's dig into two perspectives on New York City food. First up, I talked to my man, Jarobi White. Jarobi is one of the founding members of A Tribe Called Quest. But not only is he a hip hop pioneer, he knows his food. Jarobi went to culinary school and is an accomplished chef. Most importantly, he was born in the Bronx and grew up in St. Albans, a neighborhood in Queens. 

Peter: I want to start by asking you, since you're living in Miami right now, what food from NYC are you missing right now? 

Jarobi: Pizza, definitely. Pizza all day. Definitely. And, um, also some good Chinese food. There's no good Chinese food down here.

Peter: What? 

Jarobi: Oh, my gosh, it's terrible, man. 

Peter: Wait. So first of all, what's the pizza like down in Miami? 

Jarobi: Um, there's some pizza that's good, you know what I mean? But it's not the New York thin crust pizza. You know what I'm saying? They don't have the water, so it will never be the same. 

Peter: That's right. That's one of the things I love about New York is like, you could walk into pretty much any slice joint, and you're going to walk out with a good slice. 

Jarobi: Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah.

Peter: Maybe with the exception of the dollar slice places, which I'm not knocking, man. I mean, I've eaten plenty of dollar slices.

Jarobi: (laughing) Like four in the morning, those dollar slices are perfect. 

Peter: That's right. That's right. I wouldn't call them the pinnacle of, like, pizza creation. But, you know, it serves this function very well. Bang for your buck. Literally. Uh, now going to the Chinese food, though. What is it about NYC Chinese food that you're missing? 

Jarobi: Well, authenticity. You know what I mean? Um, you know, in New York, you can go to Chinatown and get a plate of some duck, some barbecue. Um, you know what I'm saying? Some barbecue ribs and all that stuff for five bucks, over some white rice and a little bit of cabbage, you know what I mean? And that's the fire. The authentic, the authentic Chinese food is, you know, that's what I like. You know, we have, you know, the Panda joints and stuff like that, but, uh, (laughing) you know. 

Peter: Yeah, I mean, if--in New York, we actually, you know, we've got multiple Chinatowns and so you can really take your pick. And I mean, there's--it's true, like I would say, like--my dream day is just like walking around Flushing or walking around Manhattan's Chinatown--

Jarobi: I was just about to say Queens. Flushing is, that's--if you want to get the authentic Asian experience, even an authentic Latin American experience, Flushing is the place to go. 

Peter: Yeah, well, the whole 7 train man, you just go down that train. You can just, like close your eyes and get out the door, walk down and walk into the first place you get out of the train, and it's going to be--maybe it's an arepa. Maybe it's like, you know, maybe it's like Nepali curry, or like you don't know it, but it's going to be so--it's going to be good. 

Peter (voiceover): I talked to Jarobi about the early days with A Tribe Called Quest, how they met and, of course, what they ate. 

Peter: You're a man of many, many talents. You're a trained chef, you're a hip hop pioneer and MC. Uh, and of course, notably you're one of the founding members of A Tribe Called Quest, which no lie, one of my all time favorite hip hop groups. My friends would laugh because when you know, I used to always like, throw parties, and I mean the first tracks that would always go on, they would be like, "Oh, there's Peter, putting on his Tribe," (laughing) it was just so predictable. 

Jarobi: Thank you. I appreciate that. 

Peter: Uh, one thing that never ceases to amaze me is just how far back you go with Q-Tip and with with Phife, rest in peace. And so, you know, take me back to those early days when you first moved to St. Albans in Queens.

Jarobi: Ah, man. Well, definitely felt like a fish out of water at first because I had come from the Bronx at that point, and it was a little rougher, you know, than what I was used to, you know what I mean? And I was like, "Oh, my parents got me exiled in Queens." You know what I mean? And so I started feeling my way around, you know what I mean? And and Phife and Tip were a really big part of that, um, with, uh, their families, you know what I mean? Because we were all very family oriented, so I was just automatically just taken into their families.

Peter: Yeah. And how did you first make that musical connection with Phife? 

Jarobi: Uh, there was a mutual--his name is Lee Bostic. Shout out Lee, what's up, Lee? Lee met me and was like, "Oh, my gosh, I have this friend you have to meet. You guys will get along so well." You know what I mean? And um, I met Phife at first I was like, "Oh, I don't like that kid. What are you talking about?" (laughing) You know what I mean?

Peter: And you guys like 10 or 11 years old right now, right?

Jarobi: 10, 11, absolutely. And, um, then he was like, "No, no, you guys got it wrong." So he set us up. He made us, uh, meet him at the video game place, and we're playing video games. He started a conversation about basketball, and he kind of stepped out of the conversation. Then it was me and Phife talking to each other before we knew it. We looked up from playing video games, like, "Ugh, are you kidding me?" So I was like, I guess you're cool, you know what I mean? And so we left, walked outside, and I just started doing the beatbox. He was like, "Oh my God, you do the beatbox? I rap." I was like, "Well, kick a rap." And I did the beatbox and we were like, "Oh, wow, this is dope. You play basketball?" "Yeah. Come on, let's go to the court." So we walked together, walked to the basketball court, and I'm doing a beatbox, he was rapping. And we got along famously, and he was like, "Yo, you got to meet my boy." You know what I'm saying? I was like, "Okay, cool." So we walked to the other basketball basketball court. I see this dude with these long shoulders shooting free throws, you know what I'm saying? (laughing) He was like, "Yo, this is my friend Q-Tip." I was like, "Oh, hey, what's up?" You know what I mean? And it was on from there.

Peter: And they--were they already doing music together? 

Jarobi: Um, yeah, they were definitely writing raps together, because from what I heard at 8, 9 years old, uh, when Malik--uh, Phife went up to Q-Tip and was like, "I'm rapping now. I feel like you should do the same thing." (laughing) So that's how they started. 

Peter: That's crazy. And then how did Ali Shaheed Muhammad get thrown into the mix too?

Jarobi: Q-Tip went to high school, and he went to this high school called Murry Bergtraum High School, and that high school was insane. The Jungle Brothers went there, um, the guys from, uh what is the name of the group? Blackwatch, um, X Clan. And there were a couple other famous dudes there too. So that high school was like a who's-who of a lot of early, really influential hip hop.

Peter: That is crazy. 

Jarobi: And Ali went to that school and he was like, "Yo, I got this DJ, he's nice, his name is Shaheed, he's nice." And he was nice. (laughing) And then at 14, at 14 years old, we start making demos. 

Peter: That is wild.

Jarobi: Yeah, crazy. 

Peter: And while you guys were doing that music, were you going out to eat at all? I mean, I don't really know. I grew up in the Midwest, so I have no idea what it's like to be, you know, at that age and in New York City.

Jarobi: Right, so, um, like I said, they went to Murry Bergtraum, which was in the city. It was--it's right next door to City Hall. So it was a very bustling and popping environment. And what was popular back then was a dirty water hot dog and the pretzels. 

Peter: Wait. Tell me what the--dirty water hot dog, you mean from the hot dot cart, right?

Jarobi: Yeah, just in the water all day. Those used to be the best hot dogs to us back in the day. 

Peter: Oh, yeah. 

Jarobi: Oh, they also have potato knishes. Yeah, the potato knishes. Bust them down and put the mustard and onions in them. 

Peter: Oh, yeah. You know, I have--I have a theory about the hot dog water cart, so I think, like the thing that those guys have as an advantage over you trying to make a hot dog at home is that water right? Because they've been making hot dogs in that for God knows how long.

Jarobi: God knows how long. 

Peter: And the thing is, that is some intensely flavored hot dog stock right there. You know what I'm saying? (laughing)

Jarobi: Yes I do! (laughing) It's like, it's like he's braising hot dogs at that point. You know what I'm saying? 

Peter: That's right. That's right. It's actually a secret ingredient. And if you could buy like a quart container of that hot dog stock, I think that would be gold.

Jarobi: Oh man, yeah it would. It would.

Peter: The things you can make with that? I'm just saying. I mean, I feel the same way about bodega, like, egg and cheese sandwiches.

Jarobi: It's the grill. It's the grill.

Peter: Exactly. So, like you've got all those layers of onions, and eggs and bacon just going into those eggs

Jarobi: Yes. Yes. There's nothing like it.

Peter (voiceover): For the listeners out there who aren't familiar with New York City, as diverse as the city is, one thing that's damn near ubiquitous is the deli, also known as the bodega. These are 24 hour stores. We can buy the essentials: beer, soda, cigarettes, spam, chips, toilet paper, light bulbs, flowers, produce, anything you might need. The inventory of the neighborhood bodega is a reflection of what people need on a daily basis within, say, a three block radius. In some you'll see bags of chicharrón and boxes of yuca, and others, you'll see homemade tofu and jars of kimchi. Most bodegas have a deli counter, a wondrous place where you can order all kinds of things. Jamaican style beef patties, Caesar salad, chicken over rice, french fries, turkey sandwiches and so many other things. You can waltz up to one of these counters and talk to the guy about your sandwich hopes and dreams, and they'll be able to put together something that looks like that. God, I love New York City bodegas. Of course, one of the best things that bodegas do are egg sandwiches as Jarobi and I were discussing. Back to that conversation. 

Peter: So like I have like a scorecard, like a mental scorecard, when I go into a bodega and I get myself a bacon, egg, and cheese sandwich, and it's like, okay, do they toast the bread properly?

Jarobi: Riiiight.

Peter: Like on the griddle? Not like, going through a toaster thing. You know, um, are they, like, you know, are the eggs hammered or is it, like, you know, cooked right? Or, you know, are they putting--I like a two slice of American cheese kind of guy--

Jarobi: Oh yeah!

Peter: Some of them will put one or two, but I need two--

Jarobi: No no no, I need two, and I need you to put--I need you to cut my roll. I need you to put butter on it. There's gotta be some butter on it, you know what I mean? You know, I'm an old guy, so before the toasters, that's how they did everything.

Peter: Yeah.

Jarobi: (laughing) Cut it in half, put some butter on it and throw it on the grill. That's how everything was. 

Peter: Yeah, yeah. I mean, and that is, like, almost precisely 10 times better than what you get when you're popping it in a toaster.

Jarobi: No question, no question, no question. And they have to--they have to have the salt and pepper blend in the shaker. Not separately. It's got to be one shaker. 

Peter: Oh, yeah, that's right.

Jarobi: You know what I'm saying, and that's another thing, too. I don't know what that--you know, what that's about, but...

Peter: Oh, yeah, no, when I get mine, I always--I mean, I could say it in my sleep, but, you know, egg and cheese, salt, pepper, hot sauce.

Jarobi: Ketchup. Oh, salt pepper hot sauce? Yeah yeah, salt pepper ketchup. (laughing)

Peter: Yeah, well, that's the other thing is like, the hot sauce varies from deli to deli. 

Jarobi: Oh, no question.

Peter: So, like, the Korean delis have a certain kind of, you know, like the Sriracha or whatever. But then, like the Tunisian delis will have, like, you know, or the Yemeni, Yemeni, delis will have, like, a certain kind of hot sauce. And then they've got, like, the Latino bodegas have got, like, the Valentino, whatever. And so, like, just depending on where you go, you get a different kind of hot sauce. 

Jarobi: Absolutely.

Peter: And I mean, I like to have a little acidity in my egg and cheese. So I'm going to be, I'm all about the Valentina over, like, Sriracha. But um... 

Jarobi: And the Cholula is good too, the Cholula's so good too. 

Peter: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, not that I think about this a lot or anything. (laughing) You, uh, you're going to see the logo for the show is actually an egg on a Tech 12. 

Jarobi: That's dope, that's dope.

Peter: That's like...the egg is my spirit protein. 

Jarobi: Speaking of bodegas, what's your chopped cheese experience like? 

Peter: So I--you know what? I mean, I can't say that I'm, I am a connoisseur of chopped cheeses. So like, so right now I live in Williamsburg. And before that I was in the East Village. So I've had chopped cheeses in those two neighborhoods. Um, and, uh, you know, I mean, I love it. It's delicious. Do I know whether it's like what you would get in the Bronx? I haven't had a chopped cheese in the Bronx.

Jarobi: Right on, right on. But you come from the Midwest. So you guys have loose meat sandwiches, yes? 

Peter: No, not where I was.

Jarobi: Ohhhh, ok. Ok.

Peter: Well, I grew up--I grew up in, like, corn fields of Illinois, a town called Danville, Illinois. 

Jarobi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Peter: So, casserole country. 

Jarobi: Casserole country, yeah.

Peter: Yeah. You know, tater tots. And what I call Midwestern bechemel--the cream of mushroom soup.

Jarobi: (laughing and clapping) I've never heard that before, that's dope. That's dope!

Peter: It's what it is. 

Jarobi: Absolutely! 

Peter: I mean, it's like, it's a creamy, like, umami-rich sauce that you just drop onto things and it's like, it's so good.

Jarobi: Same function, same function. 

Peter: Yup.

Jarobi: That's amazing. That is amazing.

Peter (voiceover): A Tribe Called Quest's first album, People's Instinctive Travels and the Paths of Rhythm dropped in 1990, and man, what a sound. Jazzy hooks, crunchy beats, laid back rhymes. It's a sound that rocked my world and defined my adolescence. I had to ask to Jarobi about the food behind this album.

Jarobi: We had--we had kind of like a system of how to do things. If we were staying in the neighborhood to create, there was this West Indian restaurant called Jean's, and we would get either a curried chicken or the brown stew chicken or some oxtails maybe, and you had--and the thing that we used to do when we was little, they would always give this little side salad which consisted of like, three pieces of lettuce, one slice of tomato, and one long sliced cucumber on the bias, on the longest bias you've ever seen before. (laughing) You know what I'm saying? The longest bias you've ever seen before, and they would give you this little container of like, a one ounce, one ounce soufflé of Italian dressing. This Italian dressing they used to make, and we would pour that over the rice with whatever gravy they had, and it was so amazing. 

Peter (voiceover): Some of my favorite spots in New York City are restaurants like Jean's: Caribbean restaurants, where you can discover a rich tapestry of flavors derived from the region's many cultural influences. Oxtail stuffed rotis bursting at the seams. Trinidadian doubles, which are little bundles of chickpea curry joy. Jerk everything, and don't get me started on the seafood stews of Puerto Rico, Haiti, and the Dominican Republic. Now I would be remiss to not point out that these cultures didn't collide willingly. Quite to the contrary, slavery, the forced movement of people, and indentured servitude brought them together. This is one of the most painfully poignant parts of food culture. The beauty of so many cuisines arises out of very dark pasts. Back to my conversation with Jarobi, it so happens that one member of A Tribe Called Quest, Phife Dawg, was Trinidadian. Phife tragically passed away in 2016, but he is remembered as one of the most gifted MCs in hip hop history, and he did not shy away from his culture's food. 

Jarobi: Every chance that he would get, he would eat something. He would try to get some West Indian food. 

Peter: Yeah, yeah.

Jarobi: I'm telling you. Everywhere, anywhere. He always found the West Indian places, everywhere we went. He was like the literal encyclopedia of West Indian places to eat around the globe. 

Peter: It's like he's got his roti antenna or something. 

Jarobi: Oh, dude, yeah, he definitely has a roti antenna, his curry antenna. Definitely.

Peter: (laughing) Is that what he ordered when he would go? 

Jarobi: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Curry, you know what I'm saying? Brown stew chicken, we used to eat that a lot. Brown stew chicken. 

Peter: Yeah. No, my--my go to is, I will rock doubles. Uh, goat, goat curry. And always I get a side of callaloo if they have it, cause I just--

Jarobi: Oh, Phife used to love callaloo, because his grandmother, you know, he's Trinidian. So we grew up--I mean, I guess that's what it is. We grew up eating that food, so that's what we're accustomed to.

Peter (voiceover): Speaking of Caribbean cultures, one thing you'll see all over New York City is the Puerto Rican flag. There's a huge Puerto Rican community, also known as Nuyorican community, that by some counts numbers nearly one million. And let me tell you, a lot of them know how to get down. I love summertime in New York City when you see the Puerto Rican flags flying high, the grill's fired up, and the music pumping. I want to play you the song by Nickodemus with Tempo and the Candela All-Stars, which evokes the mood perfectly for me. It's called "Conmigo," and it's all about having a good time. 

(musical interlude)

Peter: Next up, I'll be talking to Kelis, a multi-hyphenate artist whose work bridges cultures and disciplines coming up after this.

(midroll)

Peter: I talked to Kelis, a multi platinum musician, fashion icon, and chef who grew up in Harlem. You might know her from a certain song about a certain thing that brought the boys to the yard. I've definitely gotten down to that track more times than I can count, but the thing that's perhaps lesser known about Kelis is how she and her music wholly embody the diversity and eclecticness of the city. Take a spin through her later albums, and you'll see she's an incredibly versatile musician. In particular, I love her album called Food, appropriately enough, which brings together the sounds of Fela Kuti, Bob Dylan, and Nina Simone in one funky, timeless package. We talked about her experience growing up in Harlem. I should note that badass that she is, she was breastfeeding her baby while doing this interview. That's why you'll hear some awfully cute noises here and there.

Kelis: When I was pregnant with my oldest son, I remember, like I was craving Polish food. And like, I grew up in, every Sunday after church, we would go somewhere to eat. And a lot of times we go down to like, um, to a place called Teresa's.

Peter: Oh yeah.

Kelis: And we get like, you know, potato pancakes and blintzes and pierogis and lox and all that stuff and, you know, then, like later on, I remember going to, uh, Brooklyn looking for, like Polish food and just wanting kielbasa and, like, (laughing) you know, and then thinking about like, the kind of likem Greek food we used to eat in Astoria, Queens. Or, like all the great Indian food, um, in Queens as well. You know, I'm just like, literally there's--there's nothing you can want for, I feel like, and not find a pocket of people that are making the best of it. Growing up in New York, like, it just sort of changes your perspective out the gate. You know, it's like, there was nothing that was that foreign to me ever, just because growing up, it was always right there on that little island, and just be like, "Oh, yeah, let's go get, you know, Jamaican food, or let's have pierogis, or let's have, you know, go to get like, pernil, or whatever." It was literally like--I suppose because my mom is a chef, so she had a huge knowledge of food, but we grew up just eating everything. 

Peter: Well, your childhood couldn't be a more stark contrast with mine. I grew up in the corn fields of Illinois, where, (laughing) I mean the extent of like diversity in food was going to maybe like the Chinese American restaurant in town, and that was that was basically it.

Kelis: Where's your family from originally? 

Peter: My family is Korean American, and my--my dad moved. I grew up in a town called Danville, Illinois, and we went there because my dad got an engineering job there. But, you know, we were--we were just one of a handful of Korean American families in town. And, and, you know, even if--there were just wasn't even much of an Asian American community there. And so, yeah, I mean, I just remember my brother coming back from college when I was like, eight or nine years old, and he came back and made pesto, and it just rocked my world. 

Kelis: (laughing) That is so funny. 

Peter: You know, I mean, and to think, like my kid now--my kid's, like a little over two and a half years old. He's like had injera, (laughing) he eats like...you know, he ate at the goddamn Bernardin, like as one of his first restaurant meals. 

Kelis: Right. No, it's so funny. I look at my kids too, like we laugh because, like, obviously I'm a chef and like I'm always trying to buy ingredients and just interesting things, but they get so spoiled and they get so accustomed that that becomes their norm, which is obviously so different than ours. Like my son will be like, "Can you put truffle in the eggs?" And you're like, "What? No." You're like," "Are you kidding?" (laughing) Like it's just a whole different thing. It's just so funny. Like I think about like how we grew up and how our kids are growing up. It just makes me laugh. I'm glad it's not just my kids, though. (laughing)

Peter: So your version of that that was you were you were in Harlem and of course, you had the world at your fingertips in New York City. But what was what was cooking like at home, who was cooking at home? And what kind of stuff were you eating? 

Kelis: Well, my mom is Chinese and Puerto Rican, so we grew up eating a lot of like..like the China Latina thing, which is very common in New York, which I didn't realize wasn't a thing anywhere else. (laughing)

Peter (voiceover): China Latina is yet another cuisine born out of the collision of cultures. Here, Chinese cultures and Latin cultures that arose out of the movement of Chinese migrants to various Caribbean countries. In Kelis's case, Puerto Rico. 

Kelis: Like, I'd be like, "Yeah, China Latina!" They're like, "We don't know what that is." (laughing) They're like, "That's so weird, those two." I'm like, "It's actually not weird. It's my entire family. So, like, it's delicious."

Peter: "It's my life."

Kelis: Yeah, like, "It's my life. It's delicious." My mom was the cook, so she would cook all kinds of stuff. Um, I think I realize, like, how much...How much more, like Afro Latin I am now as an adult, now that I do cook, than I thought as a kid, you know what I mean? Like  I didn't realize how Puerto Rican I really was...(laughing) Because I identify with being black, and I'm black, and like, that's how I was raised, and...but, like the food really kind of is a nod to a whole other side of my family that, like, I didn't really realize until I had to start digging deep and really thinking about who I wanted to be as a chef and who I was naturally and all that stuff, and I was like, "Oh, damn, like I'm really very Puerto Rican." (laughing)

Peter: So what were some of your mom's dishes that called out to you when you think about that? That Puerto Rican culinary identity. 

Kelis: We grew up eating like, the whole roast pig, like that was definitely like...and it's funny because yeah, like Chinese culture, and then also Puerto Rican culture, it's--similarly, they both, like a whole roast pig is like, that means happy holiday times, like that's just--

Peter: Oh yeah. Was it--did you guys do it in a box, like the caja china?

Kelis: Like a caja china? Well, yeah, we didn't have, like, we didn't have a caja china, so my mom would, like, just roast that whole sucker.

Peter: Where?

Kelis: Um, in the--well, my mom, because again, because my mom was a chef, so she had, like, a--we had a restaurant, like massive oven in our house growing up, like the big, it like, looks like diesel engine type thing...

Peter: Whoa, what a dream.

Kelis: Yeah, we grew up like that. So she would just stick--it was huge, and she would just stick the whole thing in there. 

Peter: Wow. I don't think that many people grew up with a whole pig sized-oven. 

Kelis: Yeah, probably not. But that was definitely a regular thing for us. Um, and then like so, yeah, the pernil, and she would always make that, and we would fight over like, the butt, because that tail was so crispy and it was so good. 

Peter: Oh, yeah. 

Kelis: And then, like, lots of, like, rice things. So, like, you know, like arroz con gandules, or rice and peas. It's so funny, though. This is actually hilarious. So recently we had, like, a family, like a little family gathering at our house, and my husband--(laughing) My husband's been doing like a cabbage cleanse. It's like a whole probiotic thing, whatever. 

Peter: I mean, I'm Korean, by the way. So like, my diet is basically an ongoing cabbage cleanse. (laughing)

Kelis: Oh right, lots of cabbage. Right. (laughing) Okay, got it. So you'll relate to this. So it's so funny. So, like, my husband--my mom is like, "Okay, well, what are you gonna make?" And I'm like, "Oh, well, we just, you know, we just slaughtered one of our sheep. We're gonna--I'll make some lamb." She's like, "Okay, cool." She's like, "What should I bring?" It was like, I don't know, my husband whispers, like, "Tell her, Don't make cabbage." So I laughed because, like--but here's the funny thing. I didn't think about it. Cause it's my mom, right? Like my mom, you know, our parents have these go-to things. He's like, "Your mom always makes cabbage." Right? He's like, "Tell her not to make the cabbage." So it's alright, mom. I'm on the phone. I'm like, "Mom, so, you know, don't make cabbage. Mike just has done this cabbage cleanse thing," you know, whatever. So like, a week goes by and she's on the phone. It's like the day before we were gonna have this family gathering. And she's like, "Okay, so I'm gonna make the rice and peas and I'll bring the cabbage," and Mike's like, "I thought you told her don't bring the cabbage!" I'm like "I did tell her not to bring the cabbage!" I'm like "I did! I told her not to make the cabbage!" (laughing) But the funny thing is, it's a very Caribbean thing also, but like I forgot, because it is, like, it's one of those things. My mom always makes fried cabbage, like just always. But it's like, I didn't even think about it cause, like, whatever, it's like, you know, Mom, Mike was like, "Tell her, don't make the cabbage."

Peter: You can't keep her away from the cabbage.

Kelis: But course she actually made the cabbage. She made the cabbage. (laughing) And she always makes tons of it.

Peter: She was like, "Sooo, what I'm hearing from you is, you want more cabbage?"

Kelis: Right, is that you want the cabbage. Right. Exactly. She's like, "So I'll definitely bring my cabbage, okay." (laughing) And then she makes so much of it and she'll take leftovers for herself and then leave the cabbage. She leaves tons of cabbage. It's actually very funny. It just made me think that I'm like lots of cabbage. (laughing)

Peter: My wife knows, I mean, cabbage is like my spirit vegetable in all of its various incarnations. (laughing) So, like, I mean, I swear to God, I'm like Captain Planet and like, and sunshine, you know how he needed that to like, go on.

Kelis: Uh huh.

Peter: For me, it was like broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, like that stuff just gives me, like--it just gives me energy. I don't know. It's crazy. 

Kelis: So funny. I love that. No, I get it, though. I have foods like that, too, though, for sure, like orange juice is like, I cannot live without it. Like I don't even don't want a life without it. Like I don't. I'm like, people start their day with, like, tea or coffee. I'm like, "Yeah, that's cool." But like I need like, and it's like, I'm, like, really stank about my orange juice too. Just like, very stank about it. Like no orange juice will just do--like I get angry about it. Like, "What is this?" Like, I--I find myself getting genuinely perturbed, like, really pissed off. (laughing)

Peter: Look, Kelis, I mean, I can totally get that. I mean, I would say orange juice is one of the juices where you have the highest sort of gradient of quality. 

Kelis: Absolutely, totally. Like when it's wrong, it's infuriating. (laughing)

Peter (voiceover): I took a little detour from talking about New York City because I was so curious to talk about Kelis's culinary training and the thing she's most obsessed about making. 

Peter: As I understand it, you started studying cooking in 2009, going to the Cordon Bleu where you became a--well, you studied the arts of being a saucier, and if I understand correctly Kelis, you're really into sauce. Is that right? 

Kelis: (laughing) Yeah, I love it. I'm like, "Yeah, I'm kind of obsessed." Um, yeah, well, you know, I went--obviously Le Cordon Blue is a French school, and so it is sauce heavy, I think, naturally. But I--I don't know. I think without really knowing it, I started to--I gravitated towards it and I was thriving in it. I think it was just very natural for me and I loved it. And then I started thinking about how I cook and the things that I love. And it's always because it's like, drenched in something. (laughing) 

Peter: The biggest cardinal sins at a holiday meal is not having gravy, and I--

Kelis: Oh, no, it's just wrong, you know? It's like, "How dare you?" First of all, what are we supposed to do with this plate? Like, what is this? What am I supposed to do? You have to have gravy.

Peter: Or I hate it with like...or even if they have gravy and it comes in a tiny gravy boat, I'm like, "Come on now."

Kelis: I want a trough. 

Peter: That is my single serving. 

Kelis: Yeah, I want a trough. Yeah, so that's mine. Thank you. (laughing) You know, I think sauce is like...I always say, like, sauce is the defining factor. You know, it's like...it tells you where you're at, you know? Like we can make steak a million different ways, but like, it's kind of like, what are we--what are we dipping it in? Is it chimichurri? Is it ají? Is it barbecue? Is it a bordelaise? Like, where are we? What are we doing? Where we're going, where we're coming from? Sauce kind of to me, is the--it's a deciding factor. It's the difference. 

Peter (voiceover): Okay, bringing it back to New York City. One of the oh-so-charming things that you'll encounter here is comparison. Who's got the bigger apartment, the better location, the better rent, the cooler parties, the more prestigious job. And also, who discovered what first?

Kelis: I remember being like, probably in my early twenties and coming home from the club one night, it was like 3 am, and I called my mom, and I'm like, "Oh my God, Mom, I found the most incredible falafel shawarma place," and she was, like, literally at three o'clock in the morning, she was like, "Oh, Mamoun's? I've been going there since the seventies," and I was like, "Oh, goodbye," and I just hung up. (laughing) She was so like, been there, done that. But like Mamoun's on 3rd and MacDougal is cracky. So good. Um, let's see. There used to be--they closed it, but there used to be a place called Georgie's in Harlem. Hands down, the most rocking freaking, like, homemade doughnuts of all time. Like incredible. It was like, these old ladies in there just like, slinging donuts, man, they had two. It was like, jelly or glazed, that's it. Of course, Krispy Kreme came and ruined all that. But I mean, absolutely the best friggin like homemade donuts. Um, let's see, what else do I love in New York?

Peter: By the way, what your mom did there is so New York City. I mean, that is like...

Kelis: Oh, it's so stank! It's so stank. She was so like, "Oh, Mamoun's?" I was like, "Girl, bye." (laughing)

Peter: What about, like like, street staples? Did you ever hit up the halal carts or go to the bodegas for deli sandwiches? 

Kelis: Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, absolutely. Are you kidding? Like, the halal cart on Sixth Avenue and like, it was like, 59th or something like that, that used to be bomb. My dad used to always take us to like, uh, Gray's Papaya, just for, like, a banana daiquiri, which I still crave. Um, stuff like that. Like pizza, like Lombardi's. It's like, you know, the regular like New York staple stuff. 

Peter: Yeah, back at MoFAD, I really wanted to at some point do some kind of deeper dive into halal carts. I just find them to be such an interesting phenomenon where--

Kelis: No, it is. And it's only New York. It's only in New York. 

Peter: It's a particular flavor profile. It's like not quite South Asian. It's not quite middle Eastern. Um, it's labeled as a halal cart--

Kelis: It's New York!

Peter: And most of the people who eat there are not halal. They're not, you know--

Kelis: It's in New York, freaking, like, it's like, you only get it there. It's fast. It is--that rice is delicious. (laughing) Yeah, like--

Peter: And then you get you get, like, two, three very pale, thin slices of tomato that have been in a refrigerator way too long, and then some, like--

Kelis: And you love it. And you're like, "Thank you for this, this is good." (laughing) Yeah, you're grateful.

Peter: Yeah, exactly. It's all about textural contrast. It's just a texture. (laughing) And then the whole hot sauce white sauce thing, I mean, and that will bring it back to sauce, right?

Kelis: Oh yeah.

Peter: I mean, those--that like ties it all together. 

Peter (voiceover): If you've never been to New York City, or if you've been and you've never tried getting a chicken over rice or lamb over rice from the multitudes of halal carts across the city, do it. It'll set you back six bucks or so, and it's just such a fantastic explosion of umami, spice, fat, creaminess and heat. And as far as I know, it's a dish--at least, this configuration of the dish--that's uniquely of New York City. Next we turn to another one of my favorite things to eat here: fried chicken. And some of the best stuff you can find in surprising places. 

Kelis: It's a very New York thing, I think, and it's a very like cultural thing, but, like, the Chinese food that would come to the hood is different than anything else. And it's amazing because they adapted to where they were at, right, and so, like, that fried wing that you would get through the bulletproof glass?

Peter: Oh my God.

Kelis: Crack! Like, it's game changing. You don't--I don't know what they were frying that wing in. You can't--I've never had a better wing!

Peter: Honestly, I tell people--I tell people the best fried chicken you can get is in like, hood Chinese American restaurants. 

Kelis: Yeah! All day. Like the best, it's the best. They put it in a wax bag, put some hot sauce in the bag. I mean, it was just--oh, man, like the best. It's amazing. That fried rice, it's so damn good. Stuff like that. I don't remember the name of that spot, you know what I mean? (laughing) It's like, but I remember, like, literally I remember, that spot being one of the best things. You crave it. It's like, it was delicious. Or actually, for good Chinese food in New York, I would say, like, Sam's on...what is that? It's Ninth Street? Ninth Street and let me see if I'm walking down...is it Sixth Avenue? Like... 

Peter: Haha, you're doing like the mental trip.

Kelis: No, I'm literally, I'm like, I'm always thinking like, (laughing) "Okay, I'm walking here. I'm looking on that side of the street." That's where I'm like, I don't know the actual address.

Peter: Don't pay attention to that naked guy to your right, Kelis. Just don't look, don't look...

Kelis: Yeah, ignore that guy in the roller skates, and the freaking thong. Don't worry about him. Go pass him, bypass him if you want to go to Sam's. That's one of the--bomb ass noodle bar. Um, like just yeah, like it's always--it's like that for me. Obviously, there's like tons of amazing restaurants in New York. When I think about like, my New York and like, how I grew up in, like the stuff that, like, was part of my everyday, everyday, you know, like, that's what we were eating everyday. 

Peter (voiceover): There you have it. For me too, the soul of New York City food isn't necessarily in the fine dining or trendy spots. It's in the everyday. It's in that $2 egg drop soup that I can order and sip right out of the pint container on the street. It's in the family-run business in your neighborhood that's slinging dosas or khachapuris or fufu or pierogis. It's in the steaming warm tamales that women magically pull out of blue coolers on the street. Pro tip: if you see people on the street and it looks like they're selling something out of a cooler and it doesn't look like anything nefarious obviously, go over there and order whatever is in there. It's probably delicious. Okay, so maybe this is what defines New York City food culture: that it's so diverse that it escapes definition. Jarobi put it well.

Jarobi: I feel like New York is the most amazing place to grow up around food because every couple of blocks the ethnicity of the neighborhood may change, and you can take a bus line, like we were talking about taking a train in Queens, and just taste other people's cuisines. You know what I mean? In New York, we definitely live separately, but to work and go to school and to function, everybody mixes together. You know what I mean? And, and going to school? Just going to school. "Yo, son got rice and beans. This kid got noodles." You know what I mean? "This kid got ravioli," like, you know what I mean. So just in going to school and being able to change lunches. Like, what are you eating? Like, yo, "I've never had--I've never had a peanut butter and jelly sandwich." Are you kidding me? "I've never had oxtails before," you know what I mean? So a lot of that going on in there, we learned a lot about food. And just going to, man, if you are able to leave your immediate neighborhood and to travel to other people's neighborhoods, you will be able to taste the globe in New York City. I don't think--I think everybody is represented in New York City. 

Peter (voiceover): We're going to close things out now with another track from Jarobi and Dres of evitaN. It's called "WHO IS THIS." If you check out the music video on YouTube, you get to see Jarobi spit rhymes while breaking down a chicken. It's got an irresistible bass groove that I love. Here is "WHO IS THIS" by evitaN.

(musical interlude)

Peter: Shout out to my guests Jarobi White and Kelis. By the way, if you want to learn how to make sauce like Kelis, check out her class on Skillshare. It's dope. Shout out to our music contributors, all New Yorkers, of course: Jarobi and Dres of evitaN and Nickodemus. Shout out to the Food52 team and above all, Coral Lee, who is the mastermind behind the curtain. Thanks for tuning in. I'm Peter J. Kim and I'll catch you on the next episode of Counterjam.